Ella Magers, MSW:

Hey James, thanks for being here with me.

James Wilks:

Yeah, thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah, it, it just seems like this interview was meant to be after having just gotten back from the Organic Produce Summit where I was there, and I was just telling you this before we started recording with Dotsie Bausch and Jim Loomis and Derek Morgan on a panel. Yeah. Speak. Yeah. We were speaking to Organic Produce farmers and it was so interesting, and I’m curious your take on this. When I think about dairy and they have this huge marketing organization that is really good at what they do and they’ve brainwashed the whole world into thinking dairy’s good for you. There’s nothing like that. I mean, we are not seeing ads for broccoli and we’re not seeing ads for kale. Where is the marketing organization for produce the food that’s actually healing people and sustaining all of us vegans out there? Yeah,

James Wilks:

I mean, I think the got Milk campaign is probably one of the greatest campaigns of all time and making people believe that it builds stronger bones, which of course it doesn’t. We know there’s an inverse correlation between countries that have the highest dairy and with the low hip fracture rates, so high fracture rates, and I think they’re not even allowed to make that claim anymore. Dairy’s good for your bones. I think it’s illegal for ’em to make that claim now. But yeah, we definitely need more advocacy promoting plant-based in general. I mean, the Dairy lobby is so strong and they’ve done a great job and we definitely need some people on plant-based side and the produce side for

Ella Magers, MSW:

Sure, on the marketing side. Yeah, absolutely. Well, before we dive into any of that, I like to start with something a little more personal, so kind of a different type of question. And so here’s what I want to know. Behind all the accolades in your bio and the belts and the championships and the documentaries and the entrepreneurial experiences, can you tell us who is James Wilkes?

James Wilks:

Yeah, that’s a tricky one. No one’s ever asked me that before. I mean, a big part of my being is sort of truth seeking and I don’t know why that is. I hate being lied to, and I was on this search for Truth in Combat originally. Bruce Lee would say, researcher own experience, absorb what is useful, reject what’s useless, and add what is specifically your own. And when I got injured and started looking into and came across a search about the gladiators, the research, that’s when I went on for this same used, that same mindset for the search for Truth and Nutrition. But I’ve always been a sort of truth seeker, I think, which is at the core of everything I do. And so the winning Ultimate Fighter or producing the game changers or really manifestations of that deep desire to find out the truth, basically, I’m not, honestly not really sure where that comes from. I know I hate being lied to, and I feel like I was lied to by, there’s a lot of stuff in, there’s a lot of correlations actually, between the martial arts, there’s a lot of BSS in the martial arts world, people teaching stuff that doesn’t work. And I feel it’s the same in the diet space teaching all espousing, all these diets that just aren’t based on the evidence, but I’m not really sure where that search for truth comes from, honestly.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah, I was curious about that. And I kind of think of people’s chapters, my own included in TER or People’s Lives in terms of chapters. And so I want to start thinking pre-game changers chapter, and most people are so resistant to change in general and eating in particular that really gets people, and I’m curious what drove you so hard as an athlete that, and I guess it’s this question of this truth seeking, and you just said you didn’t know, but you have any clue as to what allowed you to be open to seeking the truth, even though that would mean that you were going to have to change everything about the way you were eating. Does that make sense?

James Wilks:

Yeah, and I think when I set out, I didn’t realize that it would change. I mean, I do think having looked a lot of the behavioral psychology research now, I understand why people are so resistant to change, especially when it comes to diet. And it turns out that it’s based on the identity. So especially when eating is a lot, especially meat eating, especially with men for example, we know that that meat eating is really tied to their identity as who they are. The hunter, the man sort of dominate the world and the planet. And so I understand why, and I think I had some of that myself because I really thought it wasn’t just as like, oh, I think humans need meat. And it wasn’t just, oh, I think athletes need meat for protein. I really thought as a man, I needed meat. And so I think if someone had just pitched me the idea, I would’ve been very resistant to change.

In fact, I did have, one of my good friends is a vegetarian I’ve been talking with for years about being vegetarian, and I was very resistant, and especially just being a man, I just thought, obviously there’s not really a big difference in terms of nutritional needs there, and other than more calories, and there’s some nuances for sure, iron needs might be higher for women at certain times of the month, but generally it’s not like men need meat and women don’t, or whatever. It was sort of a silly notion that I sort of believed, honestly years ago before I dug into it. I wasn’t really aware. I think if you’d have said, Hey, by the way, if you dig into this, you’re going to end up being eating only plants. I think I probably would’ve been pretty resistant. But it was as the sort of truth uncovered itself.

It was sort of by steps. And also when I made the change, I didn’t make a change saying, okay, I’m going vegan for the rest of my life. I thought, okay, I’ll try this. I’ve seen the evidence. I’ve talked to some of these nutrition experts, I’ve seen these other athletes doing it. I’ll try it and see how it goes, and then I just sort of stuck with it. So it wasn’t like if you’d have said to me, Hey, start digging into research and you’re going to end up being vegan or something, I think I would’ve been super resistant. But yeah, I really don’t know where the, I’m quite analytical and I believe in the scientific method to uncover things, and so yeah, I just don’t like being lied to by people or by industry or by marketing, but I’m not quite, can’t pinpoint where that goes back to in my life.

Ella Magers, MSW:

The other thing I’m curious about is how, if it’s learned or innate, innate, how well you are under pressure. And we think about just fighting a competition from that standpoint. Also in the debate with Chris Kresser, I was so stressed out listening to that debate that was so intense and I was like, this is amazing for you to be able to, what tools do you use? Is that something you’ve had since you were a little kid? Maybe the martial arts component has come into that Bruce Lee. Yeah,

James Wilks:

I think the martial arts is massive, right? Because leaning, you’re like any of these sort of business meetings or the documentary, it’s not the same as laying on the floor and someone’s smashing your face and your nose is broken and you’re bleeding doesn’t quite compare. And so I think that you get a lot of grit, determination, persistence. There’s all sorts of things that you get from doing martial arts, especially mixed martial arts or wrestling or juujitsu or boxing. I think there’s a lot of things that you get from that that can translate over into real life. In fact, even some of the concepts of martial arts, Bruce Lee would talk about economy of motion or risk to reward ratio. Even some of those things cross over into business and other parts of life, but that grit and determination and resiliency and all of those things, I think they cross over. And I think having that background makes it easier to push through on the documentary on business and that type of thing.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah, absolutely. I don’t know if I’ve practiced Muay Hai for 20 plus years and I’ve seen

James Wilks:

That. Yeah.

Ella Magers, MSW:

And I just see it when you’re in those sparring situations, it’s like this meditation because there literally can’t be anywhere else. I mean, you literally cannot or you will, you’re done. And it’s that skill of being present and is so useful in every other

James Wilks:

Area. Yeah, no, for sure. That’s why I still love doing, I do don’t do sort of boxing and keep boxing as much. I do a lot of jiujitsu, but even riding my motorcycle is the same thing. It’s like, yeah, totally. You have to be totally focused and you forget everything else, which is also great for all the stress and anxiety of life as well to do that stuff.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah. One of the things that I didn’t hear a lot of on other interviews is how you got into martial arts, because it’s especially into the U F C considering you don’t have the typical story of most U F C fighters who kind of came back, came from street fighting as a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Do you mind sharing that?

James Wilks:

Yeah. Was fighting’s been in my family a bit? So even though I had a very fortunate upbringing in England, my grandfather was 14 or 15 when he faked his birth certificate and went and fought in World War ii. So he was dropped down. He was one of the only people, I think the only person that survived in his troop. They were under machine gun fire and he dove in a river and escaped. And then when he came out of World War ii, I think he still had that fighting spirit, so he would get into fights at pubs and things, which is obviously not a great thing. But then my dad was into kung Fu, and then my uncle became a top ranked karate fighter in the uk. In fact, he got one of the fastest knockouts in the Kick Kai karate, which is actually quite a aggressive sort of real full contact style of karate.

And so it was sort of in my blood a little bit or from the family. And so my dad put me into karate at a young age and then stopped for a while and then did TaeKwonDo. And when I went to university, I was spending more time studying martial arts and combat sports than I was for my degree. So I was doing boxing with a former Olympic boxing coach, Japanese Jiujitsu wing chunking fu kickboxing. And then I sort of got into this G kdo, which was Bruce Lee’s system. And that sort of opened my eyes a lot too, where it was very synergistic, where it was, again, it was Search for truth is take this bit from here and this bit from here, not eclectic in blocks, but what would fit together well and sort of see what works for you. And so just applied that mindset.

And martial arts just became what I was completely focused on. I moved to the US after I finished my degree at 22 years old. I came here to train with the guy that developed the Navy Seal and I’m combat program. And so I was really sort of focused on street and then training the military and that type of stuff. And then if you’re athletic and you’re, maybe you’ve got a competitive nature, you feel like you want to compete and so don’t, I’m not going to go out on the street and pick fights, but the U FFC and M M A was the closest thing to that with the limited rules. And so that sort of draw me into the sports side of things, even though it wasn’t my main focus. So that’s sort of how I got into that.

Ella Magers, MSW:

And then how did you actually get into the U F C into the show?

James Wilks:

Yeah, so I’d have a professional m a fight. There’s the U F C, which is Premier Me, an organization of mixed martial arts, and then there’s all these sort of tier B T C organizations. And every year I’d have a fight or two, or maybe I’d take two years off and I’d have a fight just sort of for fun. It was a professional fight, but I was just doing it for fun, not for the money. And then it was really because I was turning 30 years old and I was teaching martial arts out of my garage at a local gym, and I wasn’t really doing much, and I was about to be 30, and I said to my roommates so I could beat all those guys on the Ultimate Fighter Reality Show. And they said, well, don’t just say it. Go and do it. So I thought, okay, yeah, I’ll do that.

So it was really just to sort of prove to myself and not really, I just felt like I wasn’t doing much of substance other than I enjoyed teaching. I enjoyed, enjoyed teaching people how to defend themselves and that type of thing. And I enjoyed training, but I thought, well, I’ll give it a go. I don’t want to look back and say, I could’ve done, oh, I could’ve been in the U F C. So I basically tried out for the Ultimate Fighter, and then it was the UK versus U S A and I won that season, which gives you a contract in the U F C.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Got it. Yes. And if you put yourself back in your shoes at around that time, did you see your identity as a fighter once you got into that space? And did you see that as your future for at least the next, I don’t know, five, six?

James Wilks:

It was quite funny because when I did the Ultimate Fighter, I only had the goal of winning it. And then when I won it, I was like, oh, no, now I’m, I’ve got a professional fighter. And actually I didn’t enjoy it anywhere near as much once I was getting paid, and now it felt like a job. So yeah, I did identify as a fighter. I’m sure there’s a lot of stuff in my childhood that made me think I had to prove myself and be tough, to be honest. And so that’s probably a big driving factor. And because my family was full of fighters, but

Ella Magers, MSW:

So when you were a kid that made you feel like you have to prove

James Wilks:

A couple of things? Well, when I was 15, I into a, I looked at someone that their partner was, she was walking along and this guy said, what if F are you looking at? And I said, oh, nothing. And funny thing is he reached in, he said, do you see this? And I, so I looked in, I said, yeah, and he went, bang. So it was just a tapping, oh shit, my nose was bleeding, and I was so shocked that I fell for it a second time. He said, well, you see this one? And I was like, yeah. And then he hit me again in the mouth and my nose and my mouth was bleeding, and I was doing some TaeKwonDo at the time and realized that I just didn’t have that. I just wasn’t, wasn’t used to the reality of actual combat in the street.

And at that moment I thought, that’s never going to happen to me again. And I said, I’m going to get five black belts, not that that’s important, and I do have the five black belts or the equivalent now. But that was definitely an inciting moment that made me think, yeah, I’m not never going to let someone push me around or bully me, that that was it. And I think just my sort of family being a fighters and those expectations, and I think honestly, just trying to show to my dad, I was tough too. Some of that stuff when you really look back at it. So yeah, all of that’s quite funny really when you start examining and going, why did I do all of that? Because it’s quite a lot to spend your whole 20 years of your life just trying to become the best fighter possible. Right.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Do you put a ton of pressure on yourself in all areas still to this day?

James Wilks:

Yeah, I think so. I mean, think that’s part of the reason why the documentary was successful, not just with me, but with Joseph Pace, who’s the other producer and main writer of the film. I mean, we said before we started, this will be the most food documentary of all time. I think people thought we were a bit crazy because we’d never made a documentary before. We didn’t go to school for documentaries. And so I think high expectations and a strong belief in myself, but then also feeling like you’re not doing enough. Those combinations of things makes you strive to do good things, but which can obviously be stressful as well often. But yeah, same with that. And then the new business that we just launched, it’s all just striving for something massive, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Ella Magers, MSW:

That’s a tough balance to know that you’ve got to have that grit and the determination and high expectations to put yourself out there and to shoot high and to be successful. And yet that can be a pretty tough road internally, emotionally.

James Wilks:

Oh, yeah. No, it’s been, making a documentary was very challenging. There was three or four times where Joseph and I completely ran out of money, maxed out the credit cards, trying to get it made. So there was a few times that it could have folded completely. We just kept pushing through. And that persistent

Ella Magers, MSW:

Pushing through in terms of finding more funding and getting, finding more, more

James Wilks:

People, funding, hiring the right people. I mean, we put it on hold. We actually started some people in 2013, and we shot some footage then, and we just felt like we needed a really good storyteller. And so in 2014, we put everything on hold to raise more money and to really put a good team together. And we didn’t start filming until 2015. And I originally, we thought about the idea in 2011, 2012, it took a long time. It didn’t come out 2019, so it was years of hard work, and we didn’t made a film before. So there’s 50 people that we filmed in four continents that didn’t make the film, which obviously upset a lot of people, but that’s unfortunately the nature of documentary is your films for stuff and then see what fits into the storyline. But we definitely could have filmed less had we been more planned. And that’s what we’re doing now. We’re making a second documentary, and we’re being putting more work up front and figuring out the storyline’s going to be and who’s going to be in it to cut that down somewhat.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Got it. Are you able to tell us anything about the second one? I know this is at the beginning,

James Wilks:

But, so yeah, we’re currently in pre-production and we’ll be starting to film soon. So the first film was focused more on the personal, what you eat affects you and help with health or performance. We touched on sustainability towards the end of the film. The second film is going to be more on the interpersonal. So what you eat affects other people and the planet more. So some of the topics we’re looking at kids’ health, but also food justice and access to food, and a lot about sustainability in the planet as there’s huge impacts of what people eat and on the environment and sustainability. And so we don’t have the exact storyline yet, but we are trying to plan it more this time, so we’re not spending years filming people that don’t make it. Yeah,

Ella Magers, MSW:

We certainly have the experience now. And just if you could take a second to, I’m want to say brag, but the Game Changers effect. I mean, this film had massive effects in this world. Yeah. Can you just share a little bit about that?

James Wilks:

Well, by conservative estimates, you don’t get numbers from Netflix. We’re also in China, which has twice the viewers of Netflix, about 800 million viewers. And so you don’t get exact, but there’s a lot of metrics we’ve been able to pick up. We also use some Nielsen data. So by conservative estimates, it seems to be by far the most viewed documentary of all, any kind of all time. So we had conservative estimate of over 200 million views. We had over 1.5 billion, million impressions in the first few months, including over 40,000 organic press articles written about the film. And then interest in plant-based eating more than tripled worldwide within a few weeks of the films released according to metrics on Google Trends. And then there is some data showing third party data showing that 75% of the increase interest in plant-based eating since 2002 as a result of the film. So yeah, it had a massive impact. We also had research showing one in 10 American adults have seen the film, and one in a hundred Americans have been to our website

Ella Magers, MSW:

On some know you

James Wilks:

On some days we’ve had 600,000 people looking at a single recipe on our website.

Ella Magers, MSW:

So I know you’ve sped those statistics so many times, but how does that really feel? Are you connected with that, the massiveness of what you were the catalyst for?

James Wilks:

Yeah, I, well, I want to also give credit to everyone on the team. It was a team effort for sure, and especially Joseph Pace, the main writer, another producer, been vegan now for I think 30 years and has done a lot of great stuff in this space. So I don’t want to take obviously all the credit for it. But yeah, it had a big impact, but to me, it’s just nowhere near enough. And I sort of like what Men’s Health, because of the film, not really because of me. They listed me as the third most influential man in health and fitness in 2020. And the Rock came forth, and for 10 minutes I was like feeling pretty good about it. And then after that I was like, I wasn’t first though, so it’s just never enough. Doesn’t matter what it is. And I was sort of bummed.

And then it was, I think, well, if I hadn’t have even been on the list, I wouldn’t have known about it. I should just be happy with, but at the time, the number one person was related to pandemics and obviously was given that topic at the time was I was listed as number one, and then someone else was in fitness then. So in terms of food, I was at the first position. But I just feel like it’s not enough. I think for all of the reasons for both public health, I think people are dying and having disease unnecessarily for what we’re doing to the planet, for the animals, for all of those reasons. We’re taking grains away from countries in which people are starving death to feed our animals. I mean, it’s madness, the what’s happening with the way that people are eating now. And so I just think there’s just not enough and we need to do more. Yeah. So definitely happy with what we did, but

Ella Magers, MSW:

We’re not stopping.

James Wilks:

Yeah,

Ella Magers, MSW:

No, I always think about it. I stopped eating animals when I was seven, and it was like when you go to the eye doctor and they try out different lenses on your eye, I don’t know if you’ve, and it’s like I felt my whole life, I’ve been looking through the world through this different lens than most people. So once, I don’t know if it’s that you open your heart, you open your mind, you open your heart, you absorb, you’re not afraid of change, changing the way you believe, changing your programming, that this new world opens up. And I feel like that’s that shift in consciousness that we’re trying to do. And what you did with the documentary, the Eating Our Way to Extinction was a phenomenal film. I saw that last year and so powerful. I wish, did that get much traction? I don’t hear about that one that much.

James Wilks:

Not much. So Joseph and I were executive producers on that with Kate Winsler and a couple other folks, but it wasn’t our film. We helped with some of the storyline and where we helped with getting funds with the marketing and a few other things that we helped with. But yeah, I didn’t get the same traction in the way that the Game Changers did. I think they could have done with more marketing funds to get it out there. But also the information obviously was great in eating late extinction, and the cinematography was amazing, and the scientifically was on point, but I think the game Changers had that sports and more exciting. And then we had those visuals with the erection scene and then the blood flow and

Ella Magers, MSW:

Totally.

James Wilks:

And so instead of having a lot of talking heads, we had obviously some talking heads and experts on there, but there was sort of narrative in there and some sort of cool, exciting footage. And I think that’s what you need really, if you want to get massive amounts of people to watch it.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah, I agree.

James Wilks:

That’s a challenge. Yeah, it’s a challenge, a documentary, because trying to get across some facts in science. So you’ve got to find that balance between education and entertainment to what we call now calling edu edutainment, you know? Got to find that balance. Yeah,

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah. No, and it’s interesting. And so I’m curious, when it comes to your heart right now, putting aside messaging and the market and what people want to see, what are you feeling most passionate about, most connected to when it comes to the plant-based movement? We could call the vegan, whatever you want to call it, but moving this world towards eating plants from sustainability to, I don’t hear you ever really, I haven’t heard you talk much about animals health and performance. Where’s your heart taking you?

James Wilks:

Yeah, I mean, personally, it was pretty selfish perspective, obviously originally when I was injured and I was looking for the optimal nutrition for recovery, and then after that for performance, and then with my dad having a heart attack, realizing the same biological mechanisms that affect performance in the short run affect the health in the long run. So blood flow, inflammation, endothelial function in the lining of your arteries producing nitric oxide, all those things sort of manifest as if you’re, they’re not doing well in the short term. They manifest in the long term of these diseases and these leading killers, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, and so forth. And so performance and health was sort of, originally I was coming performance first, health second. But then I think once you realize that meat and animal products aren’t normal, natural, necessary, you drop down this cognitive barrier, you accept all of these, you know, start accepting some of these ethical and environmental truths that you otherwise might not have accepted.

Because if you believe that meats normal, natural, necessary, then you’re not going to be as open to those things. So I definitely sort of opened my eyes up to those areas. And I think all of the factors, it’s hard to really say, well, we need to go for this specific reason. I mean, I think the planet’s screwed if we don’t do that. I think it’s the biggest thing that anyone can do is shift toward more plant forward diet, and preferably all the way to plants if they really want to do the best they can. But yeah, it’s hard to pinpoint an exact like a win-win win, right? Right. So it’s that your health, the animals and the planet. I do think the planet is really in danger if we don’t shift towards more plant forward eating and these other solutions that people are coming up with, the holistic grazing or regenerative ranching, whatever you want to call it, as part of regenerative agriculture.

I think there’s definitely some benefits to regenerative agriculture, but regenerative grazing, grazing or regenerative ranching has sort of stolen that term of regenerative agriculture because there’s certainly a lot of plant regenerative agriculture we could do. They’re coming out that as a solution, it’s really not the solution at all. The methane that the cows produce, Harvard and Boston did, a university did a study in 2018 showing you’d need somewhere between, I think 60 and 250% more land if you just have grass fed, grass finished beef, and then it doubles again, if it was listed grazing where they’re moving the cattle around. And Emily Ry, who’s the senior science writer for nasa, put together a paper showing that if we just fed food for, if we just grew food for human consumption, we’d be able to feed an additional 4 billion people. And there’s just not enough land to do this list of grazing. It’s not the answer. So really shifting towards a plant forward eating is really the only solution. And so I do think that is a huge motivator for me too. I want to leave the planet for my children and grandchildren in a decent state.

Ella Magers, MSW:

And all of that seems, I mean, there’s scientific evidence and all that, but that just seems very logical. I mean, it just seems, you know what I mean?

James Wilks:

Yeah. I, no system is a hundred percent efficient, so around 33 calories into a cow to get one calorie out. I mean, most people should understand that cutting out the middleman concept, because after all, one of the big things that we talk about in the film is animals are just the middlemen for protein. The protein doesn’t originate in animals they get from plants. So you can cut that middlemen out, go straight to the source, and not only do you get the protein, but you get the benefits of the plants from the phytonutrients and the fiber and all that sort of stuff that the cows often would be utilizing for whatever other animals you might be eating. So yeah, to me, it’s totally logical. I mean, you want to also eat as low on the food chain as possible because then you minimize the bioaccumulation and ramification of toxins and PCBs and fur ends and all these things that exist in the environment.

So from economical perspective, from a land use perspective, from a emissions perspective, from water use, water pollution, biodiversity perspective, it’s just better to get the nutrients originally from the source. And that’s plants. And yeah, I think a lot of it is tied to identity into marketing. Obviously habit is a big thing. People have been eating the same way for years of their life a few times a day. So it is challenging to change. There’s obviously a lot more food options now and options at restaurants and things, at least in the developed world. And again, so we have the Game Changer Institute, which is a research education and advocacy platform promoting plant forward eating. And we are using that term plant forward. And to me, it’s like it’s hard to push everyone and say, Hey, you should be vegan or vegetarian. We’re not trying to do that from our nonprofit. We’re trying to say, plant forward eating, we say it’s all or something, not all or nothing. And people will make their own. I don’t think I should be telling anyone what they should be eating, and hopefully they shift as much as possible towards plant-based. But not everyone’s going to do that in the short term.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Well, I think nobody wants to hear someone else telling them what to eat. So just considering the psychology and being smart around our messaging is so important. And are you a Dr. Melanie Joy fan?

James Wilks:

Yep, absolutely.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Okay. The normal necessary. Yeah.

James Wilks:

Someone after necessary. Yeah, that’s what, yeah.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yeah, I had her on the show. She’s amazing.

James Wilks:

Oh, she’s great. Yeah,

Ella Magers, MSW:

She’s fabulous. So considering all these challenges and where we are in the state of the planet, how do you feel about our future in terms of your level of optimism, hopefulness? Does it change from one day to the next? I know it does for me,

James Wilks:

And I think that unfortunately, we only have a few years left on, and I know that sounds unrealistic to most people. I think we’ve got a few years left to really shift people around towards more plant-based healing in terms of the planetary health. But I’m hopeful, and I think that it can get done. So yeah, I’m hopeful, but I think we need all of these different efforts, including game changers too.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Yes. Yay. Do we have any idea of when that’s going to be

James Wilks:

20, 20, 25? Hopefully. 25. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that’s when it should, by the time we film and edit and do the music and color correction and all of this stuff. Yeah, that’s the goal.

Ella Magers, MSW:

All right. I will be waiting on that one. So one of the thing I know about the movie is that you guys really didn’t accept sponsorships. I don’t know all how that all worked, just you wanted it to be as legit and you didn’t want people to be able to argue that you were paid off on anything. So how did that just affect your own personal journey and your journey when it comes to being an entrepreneur and the new venture that you have now with the protein?

James Wilks:

Yeah. Well, it’s challenging because there was a few times, like I said, where we ran out of money and there were companies trying to offer us money for product placement in the film. We said, no, this is not about promoting your product, going to destroy the credibility, and people are always going to attack it anyway. So people said, oh, well, some of the experts in the film have books about it. Or James Cameron has an investment in a pea protein company. We never talked about pea protein. We certainly didn’t talk about James Cameron’s pea protein company. And he didn’t make that investment until a few years after he’d given us funding for the film. Like this wasn’t related in any way. And obviously it makes sense if James Cameron believes that switching to more plant protein is beneficial, he’s going to put his money. He’s not doing that primarily to make money. He’s doing that because he believes in the cause.

So yeah, I mean, it’s been, the film came out in 2019. The second film we’re running through our nonprofit, which is the 5 0 1 c three from our perspective. So we’ve partnered with Spring Hill, which is LeBron James’ media production company, and LeBron is on board as an executive producer, and James Cameron is back. And some of the other big names that we had before are getting behind it. But we also have the fighter brand now, which is a separate entity where we’ve launched this elite plant protein as our flagship product. And so that they’re keeping them separate. But obviously people are always going to say, oh, well, you made the documentary to sell this protein. I think we would’ve had the protein out a lot sooner if that had been the case, because it came out in 2019, and we just launched in June of 2023, this brand.

So the only reason we launched that is people were asking what high protein clean products are that, that are delicious and convenient that meet the game changer, strict criteria at the intersection of health and performance? And I really couldn’t recommend many, if any, that are really wanted to get behind. So some have got too much saturated fat, or they’ve got ingredients that you want to want to be consuming, or they don’t taste great, or the texture’s not great. And that’s one of the biggest things with plant protein in general when you compare it to whey protein. And so we wanted to solve for that, which is what we’ve done. So basically we decided to launch this brand and we’re going to have a series of products with

Ella Magers, MSW:

That. Yeah, no, and really, I can’t wait. By the time this comes out, I will have sampled it, so I’ll be including that in the intro. I’m really excited. The flavors sounds amazing. What you’ve got creamy chocolate cafe latte and caramel Vanilla, I believe. Yeah.

James Wilks:

Yeah. So this is the bag you eat plant protein. So it’s got 30 grams of protein, three grams of fiber. So it’s basically a blend of upcycled barley protein. So barley was the food of the gladiators. But per lifecycle analysis, this upcycle barley is also the world’s most sustainable protein. So it’s got less water use, less land use, less pesticide use, less emissions than any other protein, and it’s a sprouted ancient grain. And we’ve combined that with whole ground lupin, so whole food in there, which is an ancient bean and soil regenerating crop. And so yeah, we beat the top two leading brands, three to one in consumer testing at the National Food Lab for tasting texture. And people are loving it. And one of the main things is that goes places other protein can’t go. So obviously you can mix it with water or plant-based milk, but I sometimes about 30 or 45 grams of protein in my coffee and it just disappears. It doesn’t have the texture of normal plant protein.

Ella Magers, MSW:

That’s super cool. Yeah, I never heard of, it’s putting the plant protein and coffee, nothing.

James Wilks:

Yeah, you can’t like that can’t mean even with whey protein, you can’t really do it. I know some people do it with collagen and I’ve got issues with collagen, but obviously it’s just not what it’s cracked up to be. But yeah, my kids are always, and I made a smoothie like, oh, there’s protein powder in this. It’s gritty, but they can’t tell anymore. It just got the flavor. And then I’ll put it into yoga yogurt and mix it in for the kids or for myself actually. It doesn’t have that really texture of protein. So it’s pretty exciting.

Ella Magers, MSW:

And what makes it more sustainable? Can you explain that a little more?

James Wilks:

Well, so first of all, I mean, barley’s a fairly sustainable crop anyway, and as is the lupin. The lupin, for example, is planted as a rotation crop every four years on other land to restore the soil. So it drives nitrogen back into the soil and restores the soil health. And then the upcycled Bali itself, because it’s upcycled. So we actually partnered, it sounds like a strange partnership until you understand it more, is that we partnered with Anheuser-Busch and Bev, which is the world’s largest brewer. And when you make beer, you only need to pull the starch out. And so you’re left with the protein and fiber that’s bound together, and that was either being thrown away or actually fed as animal food. And so they figured out, and actually because of the game changers, they spent over a hundred million dollars building a factory in St.

Louis, Missouri to upcycle this barley protein. They thought before, I think the executives, Anheuser-Busch probably thought that plant protein was a fad. And when they saw the game changer in 2019, they realized it was the future. And so they thought we could do something great for the planet here and create this sustainable, because it’s upcycled in the third party lifecycle assets, you still attribute some of the emissions and some of the water use and so forth to that essentially byproduct. So, but if you take all that into account, it’s far more sustainable, obviously, than whey protein, but even than pea or soy. And the great thing is it’s grown in America, whereas a lot of most protein powers that you buy out there, that protein came from China, which often has more heavy metals and doesn’t meet the standards.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Wow, that’s fascinating.

James Wilks:

Yeah, so and actually the protein is made in a facility that’s certified for Baby formula, which has even higher standards again than for protein powders. So in terms of quality, it’s really nothing that matches it. It’s even got 20% more glutamine than whey, which has been shown to help with muscle recovery, so while also exceeding the threshold for leucine and essential amino acids. So yeah, the team really put a lot of effort into between food scientists and sports dieticians putting this together. But yeah, we’re excited that it’s out.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Really interesting. And what would you say to people who say, well, I thought we didn’t need supplements. I thought we didn’t need extra protein I that protein you?

James Wilks:

Yeah, I mean, you don’t have to have supplements. I think one of the dangerous things though is sometimes in the vegan or plant-based movement is that people don’t want to say, we have to even be think about protein. So for the regular person, that’s not exercising at all, and I think everyone should be exercising if they’re able to, is that you do need to be cognizant about protein. If you go plant-based or vegan, you don’t just take the meat off the plate and leave the eat rice and vegetables that were left or whatever. You do have to be cognizant about your protein and especially if you’re active. So first of all, if you’re a child, your protein per kilogram are higher if you’re active or athletic, even if that’s just going on heights and gentle runs, things like that, your protein requirements are higher. But certainly if you’re trying to build muscle or maintain muscle mass, once you’re older, your protein requirements go up like, I’m 45 now.

My protein requirements are higher than they would’ve been when they was 35. And sarcopenia. As you get older, losing your muscle mass, you really want to prevent that. Obviously you can’t just have protein, you do have to do some resistance exercise, whether that’s body weight or some weights or things like that. But your protein requirements do go up in your athletic or any of those sort of categories that I talked about. And so you do have to be cognizant. You can do it from Whole Foods certainly, but if you want an easy, convenient list way to do it, then protein powder is a way to do it. And it’s not as though people on omnibus diets aren’t doing it. Over 50% of amateur athletes take protein powder usually weigh, and over 80% of elite athletes, according to studies, have protein powder anyway. So it’s funny to say, oh, well, if you’re vegan, you have to have protein powders.

One, you don’t have to. And two, it’s just a simple switch. And I love those simple switches. If you’re doing whey protein, which a vast lot of people are lactose intolerant, and then a lot of people have milk allergies or other things, and a lot of people, it just doesn’t sit with their stomach. Well, that’s one of the things that we’ve got with our protein is people saying digest really well. It is highly digestible. And so making that simple switch from whey protein to plant protein. And same with milk. If you’re doing cow’s milk, you can do soy milk or hemp milk on these other milks. There’s simple switches that you can make to shift towards a healthier, more planet friendly diet.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Got it. Yes. Agreed. And for you, James, now in your life at this point, you are what, just for the listeners, what are some of the things you do on a daily basis besides eating whole food, plant-based diet to keep yourself healthy and active holistically?

James Wilks:

So I mean, exercise is a big thing for me.

Ella Magers, MSW:

What’s your current routine training?

James Wilks:

I’d say I have an exact routine. I go to the gym and do some sort of compound lifts. I do like to make sure I’m getting in quite a bit of rotational stuff because I feel like there’s a lot of pushing and pulling at the gym. But if you look at all sports or fighting or any of that, really a lot of, if you’re swinging your back or punching or throwing or kicking, there’s a lot of rotational stuff that people don really don’t do. So you can have all these big muscles, but if you don’t have good rotation for a lot of sports or especially for fighting, whether you’re throwing, punching, kicking, you need rotational stuff. So I’ll do venison ball throws against the wall. And so sometimes I’ll lift weights. Sometimes I’ll do a high intensity interval training, so I’ll use that skier. I dunno if you’ve seen those. Yeah,

Ella Magers, MSW:

I just tried that the other week.

James Wilks:

Yeah, so I’ll do 20 seconds sort of regular and then 10 seconds all out and I’ll do that for five minutes. Then I’ll do the same on the rowing machine. I’ll do the same on the assault bike. Or sometimes I’ll go out outside and run steps, sprinting, springing steps and walking back down. I like going on hikes with the kids and the dogs as well.

Ella Magers, MSW:

I know I’ve heard you say, James, that you don’t necessarily training just to train or working out. Yeah, just to work out. So definitely. Is it harder to do these things without competition or without something kind of a goal that you have set?

James Wilks:

Yeah, a little bit. Sometimes, especially running, I do not running, but I like having run, so I’m just like, it’s that feeling you get afterwards. No, I’m motivated by staying healthy, trying to stay in shape. I still do juujitsu, which I really enjoy doing. I don’t enjoy the weights that much, but I like feeling strong and I want to maintain that strength really as I get older. So there’s a bit more motivation for lifting weights now than perhaps there was before. But I’ve still, I’m stronger than I ever was, even though I’m 45 and people are saying, oh, you have to build all that muscle on meat and plants can only maintain it. And I just posted something about, I dunno if you’ve seen Adam Sud, I think his handle’s like the plant-based addicts, but I think he lost 150 pounds of fat and went down to one 50 and then he added in a year and a half, added 25 pounds of muscle all. And so it was kind of a double transformation, which is kind of cool because a lot of people say, oh, well you built all the muscle and meat and you only maintained it. But he was a great example of losing all that fat, getting healthier off his medication, didn’t need his diabetes medication, all this stuff. And then also then you see him going from pretty skinny and running to putting all that muscle. I think that’s pretty cool. And so I’ve got stronger since I’ve gone and continue to do so.

Yeah, it’s feeling great. So yeah, mainly exercise. I go in the sauna quite a bit. I haven’t really jumped on the coal plunge trend or I’ve done it occasionally.

Ella Magers, MSW:

How come

James Wilks:

I haven’t jumped on it? Yeah,

I think if I had one in the backyard, I, there’s not one in my go-to. It’s more timing issue. I think there’s some benefits, although I also think people jump on some of these things when they haven’t sorted out their nutrition, their sleep, their exercise. I think that’s where time should be spent. Stress reduction, I think those things are probably more important than, okay, you’ve got to do the sauna a few times a week, or you’ve got to do the cold plunge or, so I think there’s benefits, but then the same thing you get for supplements, right? It’s like people go through these things like, oh, you’ve got to take this supplement or this particular super food or whatever. And I just don’t like, yeah, sure. There might be some benefit. I take turmeric for example, pretty much every day, but

Ella Magers, MSW:

Get back to the basics. Like

James Wilks:

Eat whole foods. I eat. Yeah, I ate a Brazil that every day, the selenium, I don’t have to do that, but I, there’s certain things that I do. But yeah, eat a predominantly whole food plant-based diet or exclusively, I mean, I’m not exclusively Whole Foods. I do have this protein powder and I’m not like a perfect whole foods eater. Sometimes I’ll eat a vegan pizza or, well, someone gave me a cookie yesterday, so it’s not, definitely not, yeah, perfect. But predominantly eating whole plant foods, just plenty of legumes, beans, beans, piece, hors nuts and seeds, whole grains, just making, centering your diet around that. And I think the people, that’s the other thing is people say, okay, we’re eating this 10%, well, let’s say five or 10% of junk junk food. But if you’re eating animal products, you’re probably eating 5% of junk food and 5%, or even if you’re just eating mainly plant-based, you’re probably also eating five, 10% of animal foods and 5%, 10% of junk foods, and now you’re less.

So the easiest thing, I think for me, it’s easier to cut a line, draw a line in the sand, and just not eat animal product. And I haven’t eaten any meat, fish, dairy, or eggs for 12 years now, which is when I started the documentary. And the very first stage is when I started trying it. When I was filming with my own camera, I had a used camera from Craigslist. I had no funding. I learned how to do three point lighting on YouTube, and which is how I pretty much learn everything on YouTube, how to pitch the dishwasher or install of, I just go on YouTube. But yeah, so I haven’t eaten any meat, fish, dairy likes for 12 years now and feel good. Yeah.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being here, for sharing all that you shared today and where we’ll put all the links, of course in the show notes. But where should people go to check out you and what you’re doing now?

James Wilks:

So my Instagram is lightning wilkes. I’m not great at posting on there. I’m trying to post a little bit more. And then Game Changers movie is the film website, and we’ll be posting about Game Changers two on there. And then our Instagram on for the brand for Fighter, which by the way is derived from the Greek word for plants. F Y P A I.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Oh, I meant to ask you that. I’m so good because I was like, this sounds like Fighter, but not, yeah, it sounds like mean

James Wilks:

British English. It sounds exactly the same and Right, similar.

Ella Magers, MSW:

And that worked out perfect.

James Wilks:

Yeah. So that was a name I came up with. I thought

Ella Magers, MSW:

That was, I like it.

James Wilks:

Double Plant Wood. But yeah, fighter Fuel is the Instagram handle for the brand. And then we can give a link for our listeners to get a discount to buy some fighter if they’re interested as well.

Ella Magers, MSW:

Thank you. We will put that all in the show notes. I can’t wait to try it myself. And again, thank you. Thank you for everything you do for people, for Animals, for the Planet. I appreciate you.

James Wilks:

Likewise.